Grace: John, thank you so much for having this conversation with us today about chasing greatness, and especially from the perspective of younger leaders pursuing greatness. How do you define greatness today, especially for younger leaders? John Maxwell: I think greatness starts on the inside, not on the outside. I say if you're chasing greatness, if you're chasing that, you're doing something on the outside. Instead of chasing greatness, I think you ought to choose it. Because choosing is an inside game. So I take the qualities of greatness: humility, having a spirit of kindness toward people, having a generous heart and kindness in your life. Look at the fruit of the Spirit, biblically. If you can live those qualities, you're living greatness. Grace: And it seems like it would allow you to hold your circumstances with open hands and not cling so tightly to whatever that particular finish line or that particular goal is as you're moving through life. And we see that a lot with clients as they're thinking about retirement or what is, to your point, getting to that goal. Well, the very next question can often be, "Well, what next?" And we can often see people not thrive in that next season if that's kind of the only thing they've got their mind on and that's what they're directing their whole life toward. John Maxwell: That's so true, Grace. It's the difference between going to the next level and growing to the next level. Grace: I love that. John Maxwell: Chasing is probably a word that is not going to allow you to really grow. It's trying to speed up something that probably doesn't need to be sped up. It's not letting the process work itself correctly. Grace: Well, what do you think about ambition and the difference between an ambition that serves us and an ambition that shapes us? John Maxwell: I think that I have a lot of ambition. I think the question about ambition is: What's the ambition for? Is the ambition for me to make a difference in people's lives? I think that's a good ambition. Is it my ambition to win? I think that's probably a very shallow ambition. So I think we are created by God and gifted by God for greatness. So I think we ought to be stretching. We ought to be growing. We ought to be reaching. Paul said that. So I think that's all good. But I think the question on any of this, I mean, the question on money is what's it going to be used for? The question on ambition is how is it going to serve other people? And when I want more for you than I want from you, ambition is good. When I want more from you than I want for you, probably my ambition is not so good. It goes back to the story that I tell: If you've climbed the ladder of whatever you're climbing, you get to the top and find it's leaning against the wrong building. The good news is you climbed the ladder and you worked hard. The bad news is it didn't take you where you wanted to go. And I think that direction is so essential. In fact, I would just say this as a person: I don't think you need to know all the answers. I just think you need to find an answer. And so when people say, "I would like to have direction for my life," or "I'd like to have God's will for my life," just start where you are. I think if we do the first steps right, the other steps begin to be natural and give us that kind of direction that we really want to have. Grace: Well, John, thank you so much for having this conversation with us around chasing greatness. John Maxwell: Thank you, Grace. It's been good to be with you. Very good.