Zack Fulmer: Great to be with you today, John. Thanks for being a part of this for us. John Maxwell: It's my joy, Zack. Thanks for having me. Zack Fulmer: So when you think about the idea of true riches, that would almost imply that there are untrue riches, right? That there's a contrast, right? John Maxwell: I think there are, yeah. I do. Zack Fulmer: So what does that mean to you, kind of giving you a contrast? John Maxwell: Well, let's go to the untrue riches first, okay? You know, when people think about riches, I think, first of all, what is not true is they think first about money, and I don't think that. It's true riches, but I think that's natural. Zack Fulmer: Well, riches is money. John Maxwell: I think the thing about mine, not only is money true riches, but if I have it, it's mine. And I think that they also, when they think of true riches, they probably think, "Well, I'm the source. Look what I did. Look what I accomplished." There's a lot of pride in success, and here's the company I built, and this is what I did. I don't think that's all wrong, but I think when people think of riches, they think of things that are truly not enduring, that are not lasting. True riches is perspective that's correct, because how we view things is how we do things. And so, perspective of God in my life, health in my life, the blessings, the family, all the things that we have that really have very little bit to do with money. I mean, I've been to developing countries, I'm sure you have around the world, Zack, where the people were very poor, but they were very happy, very happy. And so I think that when we think that riches, materialism, is going to last, that's false. When we think it's going to bring fulfillment, that's not true. Those are kind of misses. I call those misses in riches. Zack Fulmer: Yeah, so it makes you start wondering what does last, right? And I've come to realize I brought nothing into this world. I can take nothing out of this world. But I can invest in relationships and in loving others, right? I can use the resources that are entrusted to me to love others and to care for others. John Maxwell: Without a question. It's a form of leadership. It's a form of going before ourselves to care for others and use resources to care for others' needs. I had a person one time ask me, they said, "If you could just boil it down to one sentence, give me a sentence that would kind of help me perhaps live a better life." And I said, "Oh, that's very simple. Just get over yourself." Hey, just get over yourself. That's a good start right there because almost all the issues I have in my life are because I'm too consumed with me. And, you know, I tell people all the time, you ought to laugh at yourself more. Everyone else is. You know, I'd be enjoying the crowd. And I think so many times we take ourselves way, way, way too seriously and don't understand that we have to really get over ourselves. Zack Fulmer: So, John, help me think through this. In a culture where we are bombarded with lies of materialism and consumerism, you and I are friends at Blue Trust. We're fighting this war to help people understand that there's more to wealth and possessions and money than just accumulation. And we're trying to create a band of leaders that are saying there is more to life than, "He who dies with the most toys wins," right? John Maxwell: Yeah, he who dies with the most toys doesn't take the most toys with him. Think about it. They don't go with you. You're going to lose them. It goes back again to our perspective of how we see ourselves. If I think it's my stuff, I'll want to keep it and mind it. But if I understand that it's not my stuff, I'm a manager of the stuff. I'm a steward of the stuff. But it's not my stuff. And the moment that I understand that, that takes me over the hump, I think, of always thinking about me and what I have and what I want. And by the way, those who accumulate, I have news for them. They'll never have enough. Zack Fulmer: How should we think about helping shape perspective and our culture around this idea of greed and money and possessions? John Maxwell: Greed does not allow us to be satisfied. Greed wants more. Greed thinks it deserves more. And so greed is going to do everything to get more. Zack Fulmer: I tell people that often maybe the most important number in their financial plan is their lifestyle number. Because at the end of the day, my taxes are formulaic, my debt's formulaic, my savings are formulaic. Why am I saving? What am I saving for? I can calculate that. But our clients find themselves caught in this tension between my generosity plan and my lifestyle plan. And it's a beautiful tension that God has them living in. Because we're deciding between the things I need to care for my family and the things I need to give and share with others. And it's a beautiful opportunity for God to be in relationship with you as the owner of it all, affirming spending on lifestyle and giving as part of His stewardship plan. He's creating that beautiful space for us to really wrestle with that, right? John Maxwell: Zack, that tension you're talking about can never be settled until an individual settles the lordship issue. Zack Fulmer: John, what a pleasure to be with you today, and thank you so much for sharing some insights about True Riches with us and just really helping us and our clients and our friends think through what it means to invest in eternity and to love others with the money and possessions and resources that are entrusted to us. John Maxwell: Well, thank you, and thank Blue Trust for, again, helping us keep our priorities in the right perspective. Amen.